When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

The problem is that CCP has explicitly stated that they will be relying on the player market as part of their efforts to avoid P2W. Trading IRL cash for ISK poses a massive P2W problem when people can then buy clone packs with it.

Basically, unless PC is up and running to the point where Genolution can be shut down before the player market comes in then the highest level of the game will be broken. Preponderance is an essential strategic element of PC, allowing people to pay to circumvent it makes this game P2W.

sounds about right. IMO, it's one thing to have "early access" aurum items like the neo suits and the modules that perform at next-tier levels, but only require this-tier skills to use. there isn't really anything wrong with this, because it's basically like a paid prevew. sure you can buy 100 or so suits and the modules to fit them, all neo, or their equivalent, of course, and Dust makes about $20 off each customer that does this...but there is no definitive advantage afforded by this. It's simply the ability to see what next level's gear is like, to decide if that's really the direction you want to move toward.

What I do take offence to, however, are the aurum variants of "this tier" weapons, such as the 'Genesis NT-511, or the 'Killswitch' GEK-36, that perform better than their isk-paid counterparts. THIS is where the p2w environment comes from...the idea that, by giving the devs more money than anyone else, you should be entitled to a battlefield advantage over everyone else. The "supercharged" versions of weapons and the like that cost aurum to purchase, but aren't early access i.e. you only need sniper rifle operation lv 3 to use the NT-511, but for aurum instead, you can buy the 'genesis' nt-511, which does more damage, with the same skill level requirements, and is the same meta level, meaning it isn't "early access" equipment.

The clear decision here, if CCP wants to have a rich, thriving player-based market in Dust, the same way they do as EVE, then they need to remove the aurum weapon variants.

There are more than 5 , all you need is to go to market and compare them.

NO SANE person would exchange AURUM items for ISK that he has from abundance 90% of them AURUM users because AURUM items are always better that ISK ones otherwise you wouldnt bought them with $$$.

The Codewish Duvolle TAR
The Schizm repair tool
The Spitfire SMG
The Tether Shield regulator
My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one)

And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods

for it's tier, it is the top one, i do believe. the only way to get a better isk one would be to boost your skills to where you can use proto gear. as far as raw damage per shot output, however, the charge sniper rifle takes the cake

Personally, I know there are two AUR damage mods (Sidearm and Heavy) which have better PG/CPU stats than the ISK equivalents - they're identical in every way except that they cost less to fit, meaning you can create a better suit by using them than you could without spending Aurum.

There are also the two Aurum HAVs, which have better PG/CPU capacity than their ISK equivalents on top of their reduced skill prerequisites. This, as with the damage mods, results in the potential for better fitting than you can achieve with the ISK version of the same vehicle.

While not AUR purchases, the same applies for the tanks in the "Tank Merc Pack" (I forgot the proper name, and am about to head to bed), which makes 6 items that I can confirm as P2W.

But there's a HUGE list of items that have previously had similar P2W implications, and those items have either been removed from the game or brought back in line with their ISK equivalents to be valid and fair, only allowing players early access to the next tier of gear.

When you consider the differences between the AUR HAVs and Marauders, those can be argued as not P2W, but they're closer to it than most Dropsuit AUR gear.

You're getting a half-way point between the Gunnlogi/Madrugar and the Sagaris/Surya, but with Militia-level fitting requirements.

The damage mods though - they're flat broken. They literally have identical statlines to the best ISK damage mods, and also have lower fitting requirements with it. Those are the only items I'm 100% sure of being directly better than any gear you can buy with ISK, but I'm pretty sure there are others.

I'm also, as mentioned, pretty sure that CCP won't leave P2W items in the game, and have seen evidence of them fixing many such items previously.

East solution.

Make all Aur items sellable for isk on the market. Never make it sellable for AUR, never allow AUR to transfer.

This hope has been proven false by the events.

Last week CCP added some new modules to the market place to go along with the rest of the collection of supremacy goods.

They added a new top tier codebreaker module with reduced fitting reqs, the 'Pathogen'
Also added was the ever popular and soon to be best seller, the Light Complex Damage Mod 'Cascade'
There was also a new Nanohive, I believe it is of the Ishukone Flux variety, although I cannot recall specifically what name it runs under.

So you have supremacy goods for all of the following:

Codebreaker
Damage Mods
Repair Tool
Nanohive
Shield Regulator
Tanks(although here the case is much more gray, as the PG/CPU difference is quite small relative to total vehicle output.)

With all of those options, you can certainly make a much better fit that with straight ISK gear. I think that falls most clearly under the P2W category. What is more troubling is that those three items at the top are new, they were not in the market last week. When I use to point to the damage mods as classic P2W, people used to say that the Light Weapon version got removed and they were sure the others were on their way out. Well, now CCP has brought back the light damage mod and more.

Now, yes, I understand that when we get a player market, then there won't really be any pay to win as long as people are willing to trade for those items.

My problem is that we are heading into Planetary Conquest with a complete set of supremacy goods, but no way to trade these items. It completely locks out players who won't or can't put money into the game, and ensures that those who are buying aurum are able, if they so choose, to buy a set of equipment that can outperform any ISK variant. Now, I am not saying that these goods are an auto-win button. But I think we can agree that if we were to take two players of equal skill and SP and put them in identical suits with only one having access to the Aurum supremacy goods, that the player with access to those goods should be able to put together a more combat capable fit.

I find it very problematic that we are going to go into the very first real battles and we are doing so with a two tiered player base.

Trolls used the word P2W a bit carelessly there, let's see thru that.
If I understood correctly, his point is:


An AUR item is bought indirectly by real money.
It creates a new item.
Background: There will be AUR-to-isk ratio, determined by the PLEX price and PLEX-to-AUR conversion ratio.
Every AUR item will have a threshold value over which it is a 'best way to get isk' and also the price under which it doesn't make sense to sell with RL money to isk.
Those things mean they set the isk price of equivalent isk items as well on the free market - the value of isk item is very unlikely to get any higher.
That would mean the market on these items isn't that free - but in some sense free still, as everything is derived from PLEX price.


Please note that CCP has never revealed any intentions of players creating blueprints (normal copies) as sort of a manufacturing way.

The codebreaker and the light damage mod and the nanohive were put in this week. They are new P2W items, not old ones.

The Codewish Duvolle TAR
The Schizm repair tool
The Spitfire SMG
The Tether Shield regulator
My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one)

And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods

Trolls, I think you had a valid point in the possibility of an indirect RL cash -> Clones trading chain.|

You accidentally posted a pay to win thread, though.

How do you mean?

I do not think you have actually thought this through to the end game. In order to use the P2W modules you need to be at the max skill level. So it creates fittings that are only possible with Aurum items equipped. I'll show you, and you can do the figuring out for yourself.

First, lets get you to the Dust Fitting Tool:

Dust Fitting Tool

Make a copy(in the file menu in Google docs), and then you can edit the doc and follow along with me. Top centre there is a drop down menu with the list of starter fits, scroll down and select ALL LVL 5.


So now you have max skills, lets have you be an anti tank killing machine. Select a heavy proto suit.

Now, you take your proto suit out, and you equip:

2 x Complex Armor Plate
1 x Locus Grenade
1 x Ishukone Assault Forge Gun
1 x Ishukone Assault Submachine Gun

Next, try and equip three complex damage mods.

Fitting invalid.

Now try and fit either three 'Seismic' Heavy Damage mods, and presto, it just fits.

So there you have a fitting that is only possible with aurum items.

Keep in mind this problem actually gets WORSE for the other stuff, because this particular fit can't even take advantage of the boost offered by the regulators, the hives, the rep tool, etc.

How about a VK 1 glass cannon fit:

4 x complex damage mods -23 cpu each
2 x complex regulators -11 cpu each

Just on those alone using the Aurum items saves you 114 CPU. That is enough to run proto needles and hives. And a really nice grenade.

That is with MAX skills. Those are very tangible benefits.

Clearly, those goods are of a higher quality to their ISK counter parts. They are only available for RL money, and as such are supremacy goods.

Now, even if you don't want to call that P2W, it is certainly accurate that it is a far more flexible option to take advantage of, almost regardless of fit.

So, I cannot be any more clear on how the status of things are right now.

Maybe these things will change in the next build, maybe they won't. All I know is that since I first took notice of this, there have been more of these types of goods added to the market. Interpret that how ever you like.

What this comes down to is semantics. Either you call it P2W, or you call them supremacy goods, it is all the same thing. A tiered playing field. One for real money players, one for freebies. And that is precisely what CCP said the game would not be.

Now, I encourage you to play around with these items on the dust fitting tool. Use the sidearm or heavy damage aurum mod if you need to substitute for the newly added light complex damage mod. See what types of Aurum only fits you can create with the skills you actually have. See how to make it work for you.

You should understand that the people you play against already know this stuff, they just don't want to share their preferred proto fits. These types of fits will be used against you in PC.

Ok this was a troll post but I'll point out the principle issue behing it that is not discussed here thoroughly.

Planet warfare is isk warfare. Clones can be bought with isk, infrastructure can be bought with isk. A p2w corp will have a huge advantage by having its players use aurum gear and donate the isk savings for expansion.

This is not an issue in EVE, because items are player made and aurum only buys game time or makeover. However, the aurum gear in dust essentially means that there can never be functional player manufactured industry, because it has to compete with p2w. This, to me, also means the two economies should never be linked because dust ISK is regulated by p2w while EVE isk is not.

No matter how you twist and turn words and definitions, AUR items with fewer skill requirements give an unfair advantage to those with rl money to burn on Dust. We need to fight and question their existence and demand their deletion, otherwise slippery slope will lead to a P2W game.

Yes, I was the one who asked that question (look at the flair next to the username). I was just trying to put it in a slightly simpler question format instead of dragging in 5 pages of discussion.